Dr. Ellis: In relation to Iraq, I want to read to you — when I got the [Templeton] prize, I got a lot of e-mails, and some of it was very interesting. This is from a man called David Christie. He says as follows: "In 1967, I was a young officer in a Scottish battalion engaged in peacekeeping duties in Aden town and what is now Yemen. The situation was similar to Iraq, with people being killed everyday. As always, those who suffered the most were the innocent local people. Not only were we tough, but we had the power to pretty well destroy the whole town had we wished." This is the British Army. "But we had a commanding officer who understood how to make peace, and he led us to do something very unusual: not to react when we were attacked. Only if we were a 100 percent certain that a particular person had thrown a grenade or fired a shot at us were we allowed to fire. During our tour of duty, we had 102 grenades thrown at us. And in response, the battalion fired with a grand total of two shots, killing one grenade-thrower.

"The cost to us was over 100 of our own men wounded and, surely by the grace of God, only one killed. When they threw rocks at us, we stood fast. When they threw grenades, we hit the deck and after the explosions, we got to our feet and stood fast. We did not react in anger or indiscriminately. This was not the anticipated reaction. Slowly, very slowly, the local people began to trust us and made it clear to the local terrorists that they were not welcome in their area. At one stage, neighboring battalions were having a horrid time with attacks. We were playing soccer with the locals. We had, in fact, brought peace to the area at the cost of our own blood. How had this been achieved? Principally, because we were led by a man, who, every soldier in the battalion knew would die for him if required. Each soldier in turn came to be prepared to sacrifice himself for such a man. Many people may sneer that we were merely obeying orders. But this was not the case. Our commanding officer was more highly regarded by his soldiers than the general, one might almost say, loved. So gradually, the heart of the peacemaker began to grow in the men and determination to succeed, whatever the cost. Probably, most of the soldiers, like myself, only realized years afterwards what had been achieved."

That is kenosis in action. In a strange situation, an army armed to the teeth but acting in a way in which they were sacrificing because they were wounded, and they didn't take revenge unless they were 100 percent certain what they were doing.

Ms. Tippett: This is an example, I think, of the question, how do you prove this?

Dr. Ellis: Yeah.

Ms. Tippett: You prove it by telling stories, right?

Dr. Ellis: Yeah.

Ms. Tippett: You point at it when you see it?

Dr. Ellis: Yes. Yes. And my — I don't know if V.V. Raman is here, my friend V.V. Raman. In relation to the September 11th event, he has said the following: 'The situation would've been totally different if the following had happened: If the president of the United States, once it was established that al-Qaeda was responsible had said, "I do not understand why you did this. I want to meet with you in some neutral country so that you can tell me why you acted in the way you did." If that had been what had happened, it would've been exactly the — not the reaction, which they had expected. It would've been totally the opposite of what they had thought. I'm not saying it would have changed things, but it would at least have had a chance of producing a totally different outcome.'

[T]he Christian paradox is that the true nature of power is in weakness and suffering. That is the true nature of power. And it is transformative. And the point about — if you talk about security, the underlying question is what's the true nature of security? And the answer is very simple. You are secure if you have no enemies. That's where security lies. So how do you change enemies into friends is the true question which underlies true security.